More POV Minutiae…You Know You Love This Stuff
I’ve lately become fascinated with…or obsessed by…point of view and it’s various intricacies—and there are many. To complicate the intricacies, the POV authorities use different phrases or names for the same POV components.
The POV authorities I’ve read include but are not limited to:
- Alicia Rasley, The Power of Point of View, (the most comprehensive)
- Orson Scott Card, Characters and Viewpoint, as well as books with POV sections such as
- Chris Roerden, Don’t Murder Your Mystery,
- Nancy Lamb, The Art and Craft of Storytelling, and
- Donald Maas, Writing the Breakout Novel.
I’m POV smarter now than I was three weeks ago. However I still have a bit of a question I thought I’d surface, tell you my take, and ask for correction or amplification where you think it’s needed.
My question is: In third person limited, is the narrator (non dialogue text) a separate entity telling the story, or, is the narrator the POV character though whose eyes the story is told. The quick answer is the POV character, right? But, let’s look a bit deeper.
First, a couple of Third Person limited refresher points.
- You should only be inside one character’s head (or skin) at a time.
- The POV can have various “depths”. Close or Deep, Cinematic or Objective, etc. POV depth is a subcomponent of the arching POV, in this case, third person limited. Unlike POV, you CAN change the POV depth from moment-to-moment as the plot dictates.
All that is fairly clear and generally understood, even by Alan Orloff—though he seldom adheres to the rules. (Jack made me put that in, Alan. You KNOW I wouldn’t gratuitously trash you—in public.)
Now to the question. I think the narrator can be both the POV character and a detached voice. When the narrator is providing information, he is a separate entity, when the reader is seeing things through the POV characters eyes, then the narrator is the POV character. It sounds contradictory but its the only way scenes like these Can be explained…Alicia Rasley, page179…
Maggie O’Brien was still securing her medic vest when she opened the door to the command center at the corner of Ohio and Wyoming. A normally unprepossessing 120 pounds over a five-foot-five frame, Maggie looked instead like an extra from a Chuck Norris movie. Her thick umber hair was tucked up under a blue Kerchief, and her rather normal figure was rigged up in a blue-dyed urban cammo … swat babe was on duty.
She hoped no one would notice.
Notice the contemporary omniscient opening that zooms to Maggie’s POV. This technique happens a lot. Clearly the first paragraph is not through the POV character’s eyes. Therefore, we have the narrator as a separate entity.
But, wait. What’s this “contemporary omniscient” bomb I just dropped. The answer is, again, Alicia Rasley’s The power of Point of View, page 140. where she details a narrator called Contemporary Omniscient.
Contemporary omniscient is a more flexible version of omniscient that eliminates the narrative persona.
Contemporary omniscient is more like those old movies where, in the introduction, and during breaks in the action, a bit of text scrolls across the screen .
Contemporary omniscient does not have the comprehensive knowledge of everything in the story… Yet, the whole of the knowledge presented in the narrative is greater than the sum of that possessed by all the characters. This approach allows for plenty of description and exposition of the kind that just doesn’t work with a view point centered on a single character.
A common use is scene-setting at the outset, then transitioning to the POV character’s eyes for the remainder of the scene. However it also provides a way to impart information. Rasley, page 149…
The most common purpose of contemporary omniscient is to convey necessary information in a manner that reads effortlessly. While this is often done at the beginning of the scene you might also find a need to insert information in the action.
She provides this example…
Azetti’s destination was a city state nestled in the heart of Rome: The Vatican.
This isn’t going to be easy, he thought, not easy at all.
She says: Here we’re in Azetti’s head, because we’re “hearing” his thoughts. Now comes the transition from the personal POV to the impersonal. the author leaves Azetti as he’s entering Vatican City and breaks off to explain his specific destination. Note the line break.
Like any independent state, the Vatican’s affairs are managed by a bureaucracy—in this case, the Curia, whose mission is to guide the immense entity that is still know as the holy Roman Empire.
So, is this legal? Here’s part of what Rasley has to say, quoting from page 123
Impersonal third person means that no actual character narrates the passage. Impersonal POV forms include:
- Objective,
- classical omniscient, and
- contemporary omniscient.
In the modern novel, these are seldom the only POV approach, across an entire book; rather, they are used for specific purposed (like introducing the setting or situation with a larger narrative done in a more personal POV. …In third-person personal…the POV resides within a character.
However, look at the two sentences, one more time…
Azetti’s destination was a city state nestled in the heart of Rome: The Vatican.
This isn’t going to be easy, he thought, not easy at all.
Who’s talking in that first sentence? What POV is that? Is it some form of omniscient because it’s imparting information? There’s no line break. Or, is it Anzetti’s POV because, clearly, he knows his destination? It’s little blurbs like this that are confusing. When set off by line breaks, etc, it’s easy to see the POV change, but, what about the above?
This situation ariseses all the time. A character is reported as having done, take some action, but by…whom? The narrator? Okay. Who is? In cases like this, is it the character reporting on himself, or, the distant narrator, a separate entity in the storytelling process.
Joe jumped off the chair and banged his head.
Gee, that hurt, he thought.
The Joe blurb just illustrates that we frequently write this way. When we do, who is the narrator of the first sentence? Got me.
In summary…
Irrespective of the above two sentence illustrations. We’ve seen the narrator can be both the POV character, and a separate, impersonal entity.
However, cautions apply in using this approach:
- Don’t be intrusive, and interrupt the reader. Use lightly. Too many POV switches to an impartial narrator takes the reader out of the story.
- Make clear a change has occurred with all the classic signals—line break, new scene, etc.
- Don’t head-hop.
Lastly, who is that narrator in the two sentence examples?
Themocracy
I don’t take tests this early in the morning! Plus, I really dislike labels. Writing is enough work without having to consider the correct term for what you’re doing.
And, Alicia did a workshop for our RWA chapter. I found her presentation invaluable, although I certainly didn’t try to remember all her labels. (I bought her book, though).
When I write, I try to remain as far off the page as possible, both in dialogue and narrative. I prefer reading that way, too. However, a gifted author can ‘tell’ so that it seems perfectly logical that the POV character would be thinking that (Michael Connelly comes to mind, or Dick Frances). If it’s something the character knows, then I can accept he’ll be thinking about it. I prefer that it not appear either the author or the character is talking to me, the reader, although that’s common enough and can be well done, especially in first person. (Janet Evanovich does it).
My goal: keep the reader in the story. And keep the reader in the character’s head if at all possible. If it sounds like the author is speaking, it probably doesn’t belong. I am almost always pulled out of a story when a character runs her hands through her long auburn hair. I run my fingers through my hair. I’ve NEVER thought of its length or color when I’ve done so, unless I’ve just had a drastic hair cut and am surprised that it feels so different.
But there are no RULES, per se. Until I started writing, I never knew anything about POV. It never stopped me from enjoying a book. Unfortunately, now that I’m writing, poorly handled POV WILL spoil a read. Writing can really put a damper on your reading.
Wow Galen, this is too much to ask for on a Wednesday. It’s clear to me however, how much I DON’T know about POV. As for your question, both times there appears to be a shift in POV from omniscient to 3rd person (forgive me if I use incorrect terms). For example, the sentence about the Vatican is probably not stated by Azetti, because why would he talk to himself about it? It’s possible he might of course, but not likely. Same thing for Joe, since he probably wouldn’t discuss (even in his head) the fact that he jumped off the chair.
Terry has a good point though about someone thinking about the length and color of their hair as they run a hand through it. I hadn’t thought about it in that way before, but it’s a good point. Nice post, Galen. This has really made me think.
Interesting topic with a lot of depth. Sometimes I’m not sure exactly *what* I’m doing, but I try to stay constant to the POV I’m writing. I do switch from narrator to protag view, but try to stay consistent to the POV I’m using.
Elizabeth
Mystery Writing is Murder
I’ve had POV slips, but am getting better. I’m going to check out some of the books you listed, thanks.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Terry. Certainly no one wants a test, and of course, none was intended. You did something better than take a test, however, you left an in depth comment that provides me help and other visitors POV-food on which to chew. Very well done. Thank you for stopping by, and thanks for adding to the quality of the discussion. Hope to see more of you.
Just by the way, I’m a M-W-F poster. Used to do it every day, but for now, am reducing my time online. As a tradeoff, I hope to make the posts as meaningful as I can.
Hi, Eric, I’m pleased you found something of value to take away from this. Your analysis is valued. I agree, Terry did make a good point about hair and hand running. Never thought of it that way before. Guess I’ll have to dream up some new device. Having the POV character describe her/himself is a tough one, as Rasley points out in her book, standing before a mirror and reciting facts has become a bit like saying, “It was a dark and stormy night.”
Ha, Elizabeth, I had to laugh at this line, “Sometimes I’m not sure exactly *what* I’m doing…” Very funny. I obviously know the feeling. And you know what, I’ll bet that’s true for many writers. We all have some basic concepts of how it works and for the most part, we stay within those parameters…except for Alan and Jack, of course. No one is an expert, except a few experts. Certainly, unless a writer makes a gross violation it’s not noticed by the reader. So, we rock along generally within the rules. Not such a bad thing when it comes to something that CAN be as complex as POV. No need to make it too tough—sorta like I’m doing with this post. Thanks for stopping by.
Well POV slips are easy to make Carolyn. Good for you on the books. Be warned, POV study can be addictive. The more Subtleties you learn, the more you want to know. Or, in my case, the more paranoid you become about violating the rules. Sigh.
I hit the EASY button and stay in the third person. My editor keeps me in check. Where would I be without her? A literary mess no doubt.
Stephen Tremp
Oy, this makes me want to shy away from fiction writing altogether. Feel like I’m back in school trying to understand foreign terminology. Whoever said what they said about running hands thru hair, I’m with them. It is so artifical. And I don’t like it if a character or author speaks to me, the reader. I like getting lost in the story and staying there until the very end.
Karen
I’ve been experimenting with different POVs and have to say that first person is probably the easiest to write but the most difficult for plotting, since nothing can happen that the narrator hasn’t seen herself. Sigh.
A helpful eye, like an editor, watching over your shoulder is a great benefit, Steve They just flat see things you don’t see. It’s amazing to me how that works. You can look at a page fifty times, and not see the error. She looks at it once and…you’re embarrassed. But, the greater point is to fix it. So, count yourself lucky you have a good editor. They’re wonderful.
Well, Karen, shying away from fiction because of POV is certainly one way to solve the problem. No written product, no problems. Hey, it works. I’m in agreement with you about being pulled out of the story, that is clearly one of the dangers of a distant narrator, or any omniscient narrator. Sometimes it works, but, it should be used lightly, or, as you indicated, the reader is lifted out of the story. Not what we want, huh?
Yeah, Karen Brees, my first novel was in first person and I found it was pretty simple to avoid any POV conflicts. Just the one, so, stay there. You’ve identified the problem with it, however. Still, I think it allows the reader to feel very close to the POV character. In something like a love story, that works.
After reading this post, I decided I know absolutely nothing about writing; it’s just something I do. I simply don’t have the room in my head to keep all these rules straight and be creative at the same time. I do, however, try to stay in one POV but hope my critique group or other pre-readers will catch any lapses.
I’d like to thank you Galen, from the bottom of my heart, for confusing me thoroughly on a Wednesday morning! I think I recognize my style of writing and I think I’m doing it correctly. On the other hand, I could be doing everything wrong. Trust me, I’ll be re-reading this post many times as I bless you for your thoughtfulness in posting it and cursing you for making me wonder (yet again) if my manuscript is fit for nothing but lining the nearest bird cage.
Elspeth
Good point, Jane, if you read enough rules and how tos, then, you can begin to feel like you’re not getting smarter, you’re regressing. You don’t want to write for fear of error. This is where my mom’s line fits, “Galen, you’re educated beyond your intelligence.” Too true, I’m afraid.
Elspeth, you know it’s one of the singular joys of my life to make you cringe…anyway I can. No, seriously, once we get past the basics, which everyone…except Alan…can do, then this is pretty esoteric stuff and pretty confusing as well. I’ve fall into the tell me more on POV pit and almost wish I hadn’t. The more I learn, the more I don’t know.
Thanks for sharing your research and point of view on the elusive aspect of good writing in correct point of view. It IS tricky, and I’ve had to do lots of study on the subject to get a good grasp on it myself. This post helps also.
Marvin D Wilson
As a reader, I want to be in one person’s head per scene unless the switch is smooth, clear, and for long enough I don’t feel as though I’m being jerked around. On the other hand, I can read paragraphs of information as long as I feel this is stuff the POV character knows. He may not be thinking it and he’s certainly not saying it, but it’s stuff he knows. A lot of thriller writers will describe weapons and machinery and layouts of buildings. I accept that (I may even skim over it) because I know the guy is an expert in this field (I also recognize that the author is establishing the guy’s credentials). Since it’s things he knows (or she), I accept it.
Helen
Straight From Hel
Ok–you really make me feel like I should be reading more:) In my defense, I am reading Maass’s book now.
Wow, Galen! I’m moderating a text panel for the Poisoned Pen WebCon (www.ppwebcon.com) titled “First person? Third person? Reward and pitfalls of points of view,” and this post makes me feel like an ignoramus. I just firmed up all the panelists and sent out the guidelines today, but I will print out your blog and send them the link. Maybe I can reference you in the discussion.
Julie Lomoe’s Musings Mysterioso
http://julielomoe.wordpress.com
I’m sure glad I didn’t show up here this morning, Galen. Looking at it now, though, I’m wondering if you aren’t over analyzing and making POV seem more difficult than it really is.
For my own writing, I try to keep it simple in this way. Whether I’m writing first person or third person limited, I write only what the POV character can see, hear, know, think, or do. I try my best to keep it simple.
I love this topic! As a writer I try to be careful about this, because there is almost nothing that annoys me more as a reader as when the POV changes constantly and for no apparent reason. I have read some good books lately that would have been great books had it not been for that (considerable, to me) flaw. It’s a little too late in the evening for me to try to get into the technicals and use the proper terms, but to say it in “me-speak”: my favourite POV is the third person narrator that follows one person (preferably the protagonist, but I’ve read some books where they successfully have used a character of less importance as the person the narrator follows, which is an interesting way of doing it). The narrator has a impersonal view in the sense that he could tell you that the Vatican is in the heart of Rome in a way that the protagonist wouldn’t put it, but the narrators knowledge does not go beyond the protagonist’s (or at least the person it “follows”) knowledge. Hence, the narrator can only narrate what the person knows, but not what any other characters think or feel etc.
I’m probably saying this a lot more complicated than what I need, but that is my long day in the archive speaking…
My head hurts.
I’m with Patricia. Keep it simple. Write what the POV character sees, feels, thinks and knows.
Take a deep breath, Galen.
In my short story collection, (which will be out soon, please don’t mind the blatant plug inserted here ;-] ), I use differing POV’s from story to story. When it comes to finesse with POV I believe practice makes perfect. Try them all out. Even if you only intend to write in third person the experience will strengthen your capacity for instinctively knowing you are on target. Some stories beg to be told from a certain perspective, and it’s the author’s job to recognize which one that might be.
I think I try (with probably varied success) to use what Terry talked about–if the character doesn’t know it, or it would be odd for the character to think about it, I don’t mention it either, even though I’m in 3rd person. Physical descriptions I try to do when a decision is being made that reflects it (she chose the brass earrings because they brought out the copper tones in her hazel eyes)–my CONFLUENCE teen has a number of these.
But I am amazed at how much I am not thinking about. This was a great post. I think it’s true that a skilled author can go back and forth a little without the reader even really noticing, but it does seem like it needs to be mindful on the writer’s part.
*giggles at exchange between Elspeth and Galen*
I stumbled on your post while reading another, thank you for the great information! I would like to comment about the rules, specifically your warning about head-hopping. I am reading Jodi Picoult right now. Amazing page-turners with the most unique style of multiple POV I’ve ever read. She does an incredible job of switching POV from chapter to chapter, sometimes scene to scene, depending on the novel. It is possible to break the rules and write a best seller.